Author Topic: Attrition  (Read 8815 times)

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Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2010, 10:31:06 AM »
Those compilation errors occur because you are trying to use a version of EDuke32 that does not support features that are needed for Attrition.  Making it work with an old EDuke32 would require me to downgrade my mod and that's not going to happen.  It would also introduce some serious bugs from earlier versions of EDuke32.

The right thing to do here is figure out why the latest EDuke32 is crashing for you, and fix it (either fix eduke or fix your system, whichever is causing the problem).

Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2010, 09:26:00 PM »
I have uploaded a new version of Attrition with some bug fixes, and I'm hoping to get some feedback this time (download link in my signature).  I will be gone for most of the next week, though, starting in about 12 hours.

@MRCK:  I took the liberty of making a small change to your MRCK_Spiegul map.  I made some of the mirrors indestructible.  The ones on the outside which are supposed to be a shiny building surface, and the one inside that is needed for a shrinker puzzle (I got stuck there once because I had used a pipebomb to kill the enemies in the room).  Making mirrors indestructible was not possible when the map was made; it's an EDuke32 feature -- make the mirror wall pal 4.

@Mikko:  I also made a small change to Discarded Stronghold.  There is a sprite bridge made of hitagged sprites, and if it gets blown up before you cross it, it is impossible to complete the level.  This happens frequently, even in vanilla Duke.  I added a support beam in the center of the bridge, which the player can jump on if the bridge is out.

EDIT:  Forge's latest post in the vermin clearance thread reminded me of something.  In Mikko's EBase.map (EARTH BASE), there's a faulty elevator.  It goes up but won't come back to the original position.  So if you don't get on it the first time, you can't complete the map.  I would have fixed this but I don't know how.  It's the elevator in the outdoor snowy area near the end of the map, with a keycard at the top of the elevator.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 09:57:44 PM by DeeperThought »

Offline Gambini

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2010, 10:16:22 PM »
The problem with mikko´s elevator is that its rounded by three different height sectors, thus once the elevator has gone to the top it wont come back because it takes as the bottom floor the other high sector. IIRC i had to cheat and use the jetpack to reach that part the first time i played it.

Offline Forge

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2010, 07:32:03 AM »
As far as Puritan's elevators it could be a combination of things. The doors at the top might be opening and closing or the top floor is made of uneven heights. It's hard to tell because every elevator in that map is a transporter.
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Offline Mikko_Sandt

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2010, 11:38:21 AM »
Gonna start playing this one probably tomorrow and fix the bugs you mentioned, including the window jump in MSSP8.
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Offline Deathlord666

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2010, 06:22:02 PM »
This Is Amazing This Project Will Most Likely Have Some Of The Most Action Packed Maps Made Packed into it.

Keep Up The Great Selections Deeper
"KILL KILL KILL *DEAD* KILL KILL KILL *DEAD* KI....Wait Wasnt i Dead?"

Offline Merlijn

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2010, 08:07:58 AM »
I've played trough almost an entire random episode and a bit of the original episodes. The upgrades are great, but I do have some complaints about the gameplay:

-First of all, you take away all the weapons and items from the player once he has finished one of the random missions. I understand why you decided to do that, but IMO it kills the sense of achievement and later on the gameplay becomes troublesome because of it. Since some of the levels don't instantly give you a shotgun or something stronger, you have to defeat uberhard enemies with just your pistol (yes, it's enhanced, but it's still frustratingly difficult). I also was short on ammo constantly because of this.
-The evil dukebot is fucking hard to beat, he's tougher then the minibosses. I think you made him a bit too powerfull, or at least made him appear too often.
-The last map was I played MRCK-spiegul, by now everything was upgraded to high levels. Again, the beginning was too difficult with just a pistol, so I used 'dnweapons' to get my weaponry back.
Anyway, this level is pretty cramped, and it's clearly not meant for this type of over-the-top gameplay. Everywhere there are superstrong enemies in confined spaces. The nukes somewhat remedy this, but at one point I entered a narrow corridor and a turret was firing deadly rockets at me at an insane firerate. I got killed instantly every time, as there was no room to duck or manouver. This is were I quit the game, it just became too frustrating for me.
My point is - while the random maps are a good idea, make sure that the last maps are suitable for insane and over-the-top battles.

Sorry if I come off as harsh. I think the idea is very good, but it still lacks polish and finetuning. I hope my feedback helps.

I also played some of the original episode, I'm at level 4 now: they are more fun and easier to play, maybe because I know those levels by heart. But it's a lot of fun so far.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:20:44 AM by Merlijn »

Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2010, 12:59:49 AM »
I've played trough almost an entire random episode and a bit of the original episodes. The upgrades are great, but I do have some complaints about the gameplay:

-First of all, you take away all the weapons and items from the player once he has finished one of the random missions. I understand why you decided to do that, but IMO it kills the sense of achievement and later on the gameplay becomes troublesome because of it. Since some of the levels don't instantly give you a shotgun or something stronger, you have to defeat uberhard enemies with just your pistol (yes, it's enhanced, but it's still frustratingly difficult). I also was short on ammo constantly because of this.
-The evil dukebot is fucking hard to beat, he's tougher then the minibosses. I think you made him a bit too powerfull, or at least made him appear too often.
-The last map was I played MRCK-spiegul, by now everything was upgraded to high levels. Again, the beginning was too difficult with just a pistol, so I used 'dnweapons' to get my weaponry back.
Anyway, this level is pretty cramped, and it's clearly not meant for this type of over-the-top gameplay. Everywhere there are superstrong enemies in confined spaces. The nukes somewhat remedy this, but at one point I entered a narrow corridor and a turret was firing deadly rockets at me at an insane firerate. I got killed instantly every time, as there was no room to duck or manouver. This is were I quit the game, it just became too frustrating for me.
My point is - while the random maps are a good idea, make sure that the last maps are suitable for insane and over-the-top battles.

Sorry if I come off as harsh. I think the idea is very good, but it still lacks polish and finetuning. I hope my feedback helps.

I also played some of the original episode, I'm at level 4 now: they are more fun and easier to play, maybe because I know those levels by heart. But it's a lot of fun so far.

Thank you.  Your feedback is useful, and it is the reason I released a beta version to the public -- I was hoping there would be some critical feedback from people who didn't want to commit to being beta testers.

I am writing this from a hotel room and I can't do anything with the mod for a few more days, but here are my thoughts...

First, the turrets should definitely never have rapid fire rockets.  They can be rapid, or fire rockets, but both at the same time is bad.  It is a combination I had meant to prohibit but forgot to, and for some reason it never came up when I was playing.

I'm actually heartened that the map you gave up on was mrck_spiegul, because I think it might be the hardest map in the whole collection (although iirc maia.map and a few others are close runners up).  It is very hard even in vanilla Duke.  In fact, I remember getting frustrated in exactly the same part of the map with regular Duke, because I entered the room without much health and there were several of the damn turrets shooting lasers at me.  With MRCK's permission I would delete a few of those turrets, because imo they are too difficult to deal with (and will continue to be nasty even if I fix the rapid rocket issue).

On the other hand, the only difficulty I have played the map on is Come Get Some, so maybe that's not a fair criticism (are all the turrets there on easier difficulties?)  For that matter, maybe you should try the mod on easier difficulties before concluding it is too hard.  The player takes less damage on easier difficulties.

The last few times I have played random mission episodes I have been able to finish all the missions on CGS without many deaths.  I don't want to make the mistake I have made in the past with DNWMD and WGR2 of watering down the difficulty due to some complaints and then ending up with something that doesn't have as much replay value for me because it is too easy.  This particular mod is being made to my specific tastes.  That's not to say that I don't value feedback about difficulty, but I'm going to be very cautious about toning it down because it's very fun for me now and I don't want to ruin it.

In the random missions, the beginning of the level is often quite dangerous because the player starts without weapons.  But the player has some advantages to help compensate for this.  First, you have one death rage per level, which gets used automatically the first time you are about to die.  For me, that's usually sufficient to get though "hard starts".  There is also the karate kicks, which are a big part of this mod.  If you aren't making good use of them when low on ammo then the mod will be a lot harder.  Finally, you do get to carry over most of your inventory from the previous level (nukes, medkit, etc) which can be a big help.  By the way, I coded the nukes so that they cannot blow up cracks, so allowing the player to start with those is in keeping with the principle that the player should have to progress as the mapper intended.  Despite all of that, I concede there might be times when, due to the randomized nature of encounters, you are confronted with a situation that is unfair and perhaps unwinnable.  I want to minimize that, but due to the nature of the mod and my desire to keep it challenging for me, I can't promise to eliminate it entirely.

I will look into making the Dukebots come in many varying difficulties.  Right now, the only thing that changes about them as you progress is their selection of weapons, and after several levels they have the best weapons.  Perhaps I can make them start slower and weaker.

One thing to keep in mind about the random missions is that Attrition is not coded for any particular set of maps.  A totally different set of maps can be substituted and it will work exactly the same.  That's why I have my code try to detect appropriate weather rather than code weather for certain level numbers.  And that's why I will not makes rules about which maps can come up at which points in the game.

Offline Mikko_Sandt

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2010, 08:40:31 AM »
Damn, went from Gambini's Hydro Station (2nd level) to some Lost Highway map where you get blown up in the beginning if you don't exit the moving car when it stops. Anyways, I loaded the last save which was right at the end of Hydro Station and exited the map. It then took me to some other random map and not the Lost Highway map. Can't you somehow fix the map order whenever the player loads an episode so that this doesn't happen? It's like taking candy away from a baby.
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Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2010, 10:21:58 AM »
Damn, went from Gambini's Hydro Station (2nd level) to some Lost Highway map where you get blown up in the beginning if you don't exit the moving car when it stops. Anyways, I loaded the last save which was right at the end of Hydro Station and exited the map. It then took me to some other random map and not the Lost Highway map. Can't you somehow fix the map order whenever the player loads an episode so that this doesn't happen?


That's not necessary.  When you die and do the standard "PRESS SPACE TO RESTART LEVEL" (or whatever the message is in this mod) you will restart the level with the same experience levels, inventory, etc. that you had when you first entered the level.  The same is true if you select the  RESTART MISSION option from the menu.  I went to great trouble to code it that way, because otherwise restarting the level would be suicide.

Offline ck3D

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2010, 11:36:52 AM »
With MRCK's permission I would delete a few of those turrets, because imo they are too difficult to deal with (and will continue to be nasty even if I fix the rapid rocket issue).

Go for it, I don't mind at all
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Offline Mikko_Sandt

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2010, 05:08:45 PM »
Okay, played through the first random episode on Let's Rock. Had 436936 points after killing the boss (WG's map).

Don't have much to complain. I really liked it. I don't mind the mod taking away all the guns as you're usually pretty quickly back to business and the inventory is kept. The downside though is that there were about three maps where I didn't see the chaingun or the shrinker/expander at all so by the time the episode ended, my shotgun was almost at level 8 while the chaingun had just reached level 4 even though they should be pretty equal guns. Maybe this was just bad luck, but maybe you could make Enforcers drop chainguns more often?

You could be a bit more specific about the alt fire function in the readme/controls menu. In the readme it said that you have to specify a key but when the in-game list mentioned "reload altfire", I took it literally and assumed you hadn't yet coded an altfire mode.

Starlite Project & the WG boss map had midis that were incredibly loud so I had to turn both of them off. Otherwise the selection of midis was fine. (Anyone else have it so that if you turn music off and then load game, the music is back on?)

I'd move the weapon images a bit closer to the center because now the lefternmost icon mixes in with level stats if you keep them on (as I do).

The biggest problem with map mirroring is that you get all written stuff the wrong way.

Whatever you do, don't make this any more difficult. I don't mind the fact that it gets pretty difficult the further you go but there were situations in the first few maps where I had to resort to kicking, which is quite lame and may seem exceedingly difficult to many who're not as experienced as I am.

That's not necessary.  When you die and do the standard "PRESS SPACE TO RESTART LEVEL" (or whatever the message is in this mod) you will restart the level with the same experience levels, inventory, etc. that you had when you first entered the level.

The message that pops up is "load last game?" and pressing space is the natural reaction because I'd guess only a few people ever use the restart function which restarts the level with no guns other than the pistol. The fact that this is not a problem in this mod is something that people don't know so they may load the last map in case they die at the beginning of a map and then lose their chance to play the map they first got.

But this may not be a bad thing, at least not for me. I usually took a precautionary save at every nukebutton so that I could exit the map again in case I got the kind of a map I didn't want to play. However, that's just me; I'm familiar with all the maps so there are naturally the kind of maps I wish to skip for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 05:11:27 PM by Mikko_Sandt »
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Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2010, 09:01:38 PM »
Okay, played through the first random episode on Let's Rock. Had 436936 points after killing the boss (WG's map).

Don't have much to complain. I really liked it. I don't mind the mod taking away all the guns as you're usually pretty quickly back to business and the inventory is kept. The downside though is that there were about three maps where I didn't see the chaingun or the shrinker/expander at all so by the time the episode ended, my shotgun was almost at level 8 while the chaingun had just reached level 4 even though they should be pretty equal guns. Maybe this was just bad luck, but maybe you could make Enforcers drop chainguns more often?

Glad you like it!

I've never had any trouble leveling up chaingun, so I'm guessing you just had bad luck with the selection of maps in that respect.

By the way, the "Daikarin and More" episode does not reset weapons, and as you know that episode is quite awesome.  It fits the mod well I think (the "and more" are some other maps tacked on to the end to increase the episode length; I think they fit well).

You could be a bit more specific about the alt fire function in the readme/controls menu. In the readme it said that you have to specify a key but when the in-game list mentioned "reload altfire", I took it literally and assumed you hadn't yet coded an altfire mode.

The same key is used for reloading the pistol and altfire on the other weapons.  Is that the problem?

I'd move the weapon images a bit closer to the center because now the lefternmost icon mixes in with level stats if you keep them on (as I do).

I'll do that, assuming it doesn't cause some other problem.

The message that pops up is "load last game?"

If you answer N then you can restart the level.  The "load last game?" is hardcoded and can't be stopped.  The music bug you mentioned is an EDuke32 bug.

Offline Mikko_Sandt

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2010, 04:01:39 PM »
The same key is used for reloading the pistol and altfire on the other weapons.  Is that the problem?

The problem is that it says "reload altfire" (as opposed to "reload & altfire" or "reload/altfire") in the controls menu which indicates a key that reloads your altfire.

Quote
If you answer N then you can restart the level.

As I said, people don't use that function.
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Offline Dan G

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Re: Attrition
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2010, 11:15:55 PM »
The same key is used for reloading the pistol and altfire on the other weapons.  Is that the problem?

The problem is that it says "reload altfire" (as opposed to "reload & altfire" or "reload/altfire") in the controls menu which indicates a key that reloads your altfire.

Quote

I seem to remember that I did it that way because there was a problem using the characters '/' or '&' in the menu names.  I'll try to find something more clear.